Transcribed by Ernest Onguko, Jaslika Youth Associate.
Declan Magero: Thank you Dr. Sheila Wamahiu for that, yes so after such deep insights I think it will be helpful to ask some questions. I will push the first question to Veronica who talked more about invisible children and focusing on intersex children. This question is from Noam Ondicho who is in Nairobi and she is asking, what is the Government doing to enhance intersex children’s education rights, and which boarding schools are they admitted in?
Veronica Mwangi: Thank you for that question, I would want to first state that prior to COVID-19 pandemic, the Intersex Person Implementation Commission Committee and also the National Commission on Human Rights had already begun engagement with the Ministry of Education with regard to addressing cases that were brought on board. To be precise six children who were brought and were having difficulties transitioning from primary school to secondary school. So all the six cases were assisted and these students are now in their right schools or in their comfortable secure schools but in regard to putting in mechanisms that are sustainable, the committee is working closely with the Ministry of Education and the Office of the Attorney General and other actors including the civil society organization that works with intersex person's to develop guidelines that will ensure and enhance inclusivity and access to education for intersex children across the country. Thank you.
Declan Magero: Veronica, if we can push further this is a question from Jasmine Wamahiu from Nairobi: Are there some programmes in place to sensitize the public especially, teachers and caregivers. And you did give us examples of - like a caregiver mentality - which was “wajinga” [Swahili word for a fool] which indicates a very negative view of this matter. So to that effect are there some programmes to sensitize the general public?
Veronica Mwangi: Thank you. Yes, there are programmes that have been developed to address and to sensitize the entire public not just the intersex community but also the different actors including the professionals. And what we had done initially, that is from last year December to February this year, the committee had already started regional engagement or mapping out the different caregivers both in schools, the different duty bearers we have, the community by holding dialogues - regional dialogues which were helping. What's most helping the people in the different counties - there are 12 counties that we targeted to start the conversation about the plight of intersex persons the challenges they face and also agree on how do we move at the county level, what innovations can we bring on board to increase the advocacy for the rights of intersex children. Yes there are programmes and even as we go on they'll be seeing a lot of webinars and speaking to the public, but we have also developed materials for the public use. So beyond that, I believe, even beyond COVID-19 there's a lot of our interactions with the public and the different stakeholders that are already scheduled, thank you.
Declan Magero: Thank you. Great and maybe we can just keep you still. We're going through a global pandemic - COVID-19 - and we've seen increasing gender based violence and violence against children. For instance, have you noticed any evidence in increased violence against intersex persons?
Veronica Mwangi: Thank you. In terms of violence perpetrated against intersex persons; so far we have not received any gender-based related case or complain but what we have also done, noting that this pandemic brought about an emergency situation and different measures were put in place that again were based on the discriminatory laws that are already in existence. We as a committee. and as a commission, we have been monitoring the different the impact of COVID19 on the families of intersex persons, but also monitoring the cases that are being reported so we have been using an SMS number that is 22359 which we have really encouraged the persons - the intersex persons, the public and the stakeholders to really reach out when they have an issue. So far we have received that 36 cases from the intersex community. I would really shock you by just indicating that that is out of the 36 cases we have received 33 cases are raising concerns about the lack of survival, or the lack of ways or means of fending for these intersex children and intersex families and this is again an impact of COVID-19 where most of the intersex households are single headed families and the stigma, and the mental fatigue that comes with raising a child sort in single headed families, and also the levels economic empowerment are really low. So the 33 cases we have received so far speak to lack of food, lack of those - lack of access to those casual jobs and also some of them have been - have been sent out of their homes so we are working closely with the organizations that are supporting intersex persons to provide some of these food, to provide some of this rent money, and also medication. But beyond that we have also been focusing on the responsibility of the State. We have also activated follow-up mechanism to ensure that intersex persons are also remembered or they are acknowledged when it comes to equalization, social protections initiatives which other vulnerable children benefit from. Thank you.
Declan Magero: Thank you thank you so much Veronica. I'd like to engage Dr. Saudamini a little bit. Dr. Saudamini took us through matters of transitional justice and the importance of transitional justice. And the first question I'd like to ask you, Dr. Saudamini, you did indicate your extensive experience in various countries and in jurisdictions as far as children and transitional justice is concerned. Amal Mohamed from Nairobi is asking if there is a best standard for successfully involving children in the reconciliation process in any of these countries and how did they achieve this and how did this particular country achieve this?.
Dr. Saudamini: Okay thank you for the question. What I will say initially is that there are good practices we can’t say there's a best practice because in each situation requires the specific context to be taken into consideration and to reflect the experiences of the children their families and communities you know I mentioned the Sierra Leone case and I mentioned also the case in Nepal where a Truth Commission was not pursued or has not been as yet but a national dialogue was pursued recently in Sri Lanka we were working with local national organizations building capacity around specifically reconciliation in the aftermath of a conflict and that that has been also quite I would say successful in each of these cases that the process continues so it's a pursuit of reconciliation that is ongoing thank you.
Declan Magero: If I could go into another question from Iqbal in Nairobi, do the victims demand any form of accountability based on your experience? Do they demand any form of accountability or justice for what they've suffered?
Dr. Saudamini: Yes, that's a huge issue. The example that comes to mind: there is the case in Uganda where there was quite a strong debate about whether on the mechanisms to address accountability, it would be best to follow the traditional channels of reconciliation process or to pursue criminal prosecution and accountability for the victims. You know again there's no one answer because there were diverse positions and opinions. But in some cases, in particular, in that situation some of the victims really were adamant about pursuing formal criminal prosecution that isn't always the way to have impact across the community and to pursue reconciliation. So that judicial and non-judicial pathways towards accountability and towards reconciliation vary. I mean the situation also in Colombia and the children's involvement in that conflict led to also debates about that responsibility or potential accountability for one of the longest conflicts you know in history and the involvement of children in the process now in the aftermath of that conflict. It's complex. In particular, the reparations programmes have involved children. So there is a different - let's say - palette for pursuing accountability in each case. Still today the situation that was pursued in Sierra Leone introduced quite a lot of new precedent both in terms of the non-judicial truth commission accountability as well as the criminal prosecutions that were through the special court for Sierra Leone. So that that range of possibilities for reconciliation is specific to the context. But it's very interesting to consider education and this was mentioned also by our other panelists; how important that is in building reconciliation over the long term and ending, you know, and preventing recurrence. That's really, I would say, a very important key you know in how the next generation can learn from the past in order to prevent recurrence of violence. How do we do that? We have to do that again through education, both informal community-based, but also formal education in schools so that we learn what and how to build a peaceful and stable society with the full engagement of the communities who have been affected both as victims but also as perpetrators so that we can come together.
Declan Magero: Thank you so much Dr. Saudamini. I'll move on to Dr. Laibuta. Dr. Laibuta took us through, you know, policy and advocacy. And he talked about every right as a golden stream that cuts across all these legislations and the question I'd like to ask you Dr. Laibuta, is from Amal Mohamed in Nairobi, Kenya who asks: Following the publishing of the latest report on children in the justice system in Kenya, and your work on the Children Bill, what is the biggest obstacle of children in the justice system and from the Kenyan perspective, and maybe some global insights, global trends as well?
Dr. Laibuta: Thank you Declan. I think the biggest hindrance indeed even though we have had the practice, diversion practice in our children's courts, we haven't had a - you know a set of court rules and regulations that define step-to-step practical approach to diversion. What we have had is a standard operating system. Of course we did not carry the force of law but for the first time now after the enactment of the Bill and the draft Rules and Regulations that we have in place right now waiting enactment of the Children Bill 2020. we will have a defined legislative, substantive and subsidiary frameworks for child justice. There was an attempt some years back to come up with the law with statute law on juvenile justice way back around 2013, 2014, 2015 but it was felt that in Kenya there was a need to consolidate the law relating to children matters. That is why we had the 2001 Act earlier on repealing say ... The Young Person’s Act and various other segregated pieces of legislation that dealt with different matters related to children. The consolidating statute law of course fell behind times with the promulgation of the Constitution from the year 2010. So it became necessary to reform the law and have yet another consolidative statute, the Children Bill that we are dealing with right now, that is just about to be presented to the Cabinet for approval and then take all the usual legislative process of publishing, and public participation through the various parliamentary committees and eventually enactment. Once that is done, then we will have also defined regulatory and framework of rules of procedure in various courts to deal not just with children in conflict with another law but in all matters that affect the children - the adoption care guardianship, care and protection institutions and so forth. We are just about there but of course we've had quite a number of impediments. The sector the deals with children matters, which attracts a lot of interest from various state and non-state agencies, individuals of course who have their funded programmes. They draw funds from various sources to run programmes for children in care and protection and so forth. And there was the push and pull as to who should have power to do what. Of course every player wants to have a lead in doing what has to be done that pulled us back for a while but I think we've broken through that.
Declan Magero: Oh, great. Another quick one for Dr. Laibuta from Thogori Mathenge who asks: There has been a normative lack of clarity on whether the best interest principle is applicable in criminal proceedings against children. Is this really so?
Dr. Laibuta: Now that's a misconception. In fact if you look at the national procedures and also the justice system that deals with children - whether they are held in remand homes or rehabilitation schools or children that are accommodated in children's institutions for whatever reason - trust me. the standard set now if they go through Parliament with this draft pieces of legislation. We will have every stage considering the best interest of the child. We do this because we believe that children have special needs. They need to be treated not as criminals, but if they offend, they need to be corrected, they need to be guided and that's why we do not even talk of them as criminals, we do not talk about sentencing, we don't talk of convicting them. The approach always is to reform the children and guide them to grow and develop. However, what Leslee presented here is fundamental for all of us to take note. Some of the children grow in very disadvantaged environments and to [deal with] them using laws and programmes becomes very difficult. So we know that there are those in respect of which it is too late to have corrective measures but we nonetheless try to come up with legislation that is leaning towards a corrective reform rather than punishment.
Declan Magero: Thank you so much Dr. Laibuta. We appreciate your response. I think I look next to Leslee Udwin. I personally had the privilege to actually work with Leslie Udwin and we continue working and I'm sure Leslee must be very happy to hear that Dr. Laibuta picked an insight from her presentation. Great presentations by all panelists. Leslee, how do you ensure the teachings done to children in Think Equal are carried out through adulthood in the midst of a strong culture that trumps the law?
Leslie Udwin: Thank you for a very persuasive question. Now, how we ensure is through the simplicity of the science of brain development. There have been many studies - and by the way anybody who's interested in seeing them I will happily send you a summary which we have which is incredibly thick. There have been many studies which show that when you teach social and emotional learning in the early years, this does form a foundation for later behaviors and it predicts the perpetration of crimes in adulthood. So, for example, a child who has had significant and “quality social-emotional learning” in its early years will be 86 percent less likely to ever come into contact with the police than a child in the control group which is not. Academic marks themselves rise by 17 percent so this should be very motivating and persuading to parents. There's evidence, there's scientific evaluations and evidence, very robust and it's not surprising because 95 percent of the human brain is fully developed by the age of 5, and these neural pathways which are set for pro-social or antisocial behaviors and attitudes are set by that point, which is why I believe we are actually certifiably insane to try and spend our energies undoing that set pattern rather than creating it right in the first place. And another aspect I think, implied at least by your question, is what happens to those children who we teach these wonderful pro-social, caring, compassionate and empathetic ways in their classrooms and communities when they go home and they are immersed in or are witness to or victims of the kind of human rights abuses that take place in homes by these adults who have not had the privilege or care shown to them for them to have learned how to value themselves and other human beings? Well what happens is that the children go in knowing that what they are seeing is wrong. And if I could tell you and of course I won't because it will take so long. I've got hundreds, hundreds of examples from the 14 countries in which we're now working with Think Equal in different stages. Children who go home and teach their parents, and successfully. So the thing that I was terrified of was that we would have cases of parents coming to the teachers and saying, ‘What the hell are you teaching my child? I don't want my child to learn to love Tamils or the Sinhalese or whatever. You know, they killed them’. You know, it's not happening and actually parents are coming and saying we want more of this because they do, all parents want their children to thrive and you know to grow in good and fertile and supportive soil and not commit the same mistakes as their parents have. It works.
Declan Magero: Oh, great! And probably you already alluded to this, but you can dive deeper. Changu Mannathoko, JMC Botswana to Leslee: How do you factor in patriarchal culture, neo-colonialism, and South-North power dynamics that have a role in promoting - impeding child rights education?
Leslie Udwin: So what we teach is that each and every one of us is of equal value. Now when we're dealing with children between 3 and 6, we don't teach the misdemeanors and crimes of the past. We are basically building a present, a community of care and love and compassion for our children in their classrooms Hopefully in the homes, although that is a much tougher task but we don't dwell on how things have been bad. These are three to six year old children we are dwelling on; how they should be and how human beings are at their best in all their diversity. And you know, say, so in a sense we are building by example, we are building by instruction and immersing the children experientially in what is good and what is right. Now as far as breaking patterns is concerned, when children learn that I as a girl at the age of 3 to 6 can be anything I want to be - I can be an astronaut and I know this because I'm shown and I'm playing games with occupation cards that have showed me a girl astronaut and a boy astronaut and a girl scientist and a boy scientist and there is no question, there's no questioning that - there are patriarchal restrictions on me because of my gender. Well, that is how we're going to break patriarchal values and a system of patriarchy that results in a soldier coming out of a maternity hospital with a little baby, newborn baby in his hands and a gun in the other. That's how we're going to break that, but it's the only way I know of to break it. And that is why that's what I'd given the rest of my life to.
Declan Magero: Thank you so much Leslie Udwin, much appreciated. There's another question; I'll push this question to both Dr. Saudamini and Leslee Udwin. So the question is from Shamim Juma in Mombasa, Kenya who says we are struggling with children in conflict with the law. They have no sense of remorse to attack and harm anyone. Now that the damage is already done, what should we do? Dr. Saudamini if you don't mind, you can pick part of the question and you can also make a comment in a minute.
Dr. Saudamini: Okay thank you. That's a very tough question and there is no one answer. I think that you know what we're talking about here is how do we make that transition from conflict and war to actually teach peace. Does justice contribute to reconciliation? Is justice necessary for peace? And what does justice mean in a particular community? And when children are involved when they've been recruited and when they've been influenced to take part in hostilities, then how can we recover the humanity in the community in which they live? And indeed accountability is a part of that and most significantly reconciliation and the recognition of our common humanity. How do we teach that? How do we approach that? There are many efforts underway again. We can't give up too much as we're living in a very divided world right now and we need to find ways to come together. So to bring children out of those very extreme situations of violence there is the necessary process of re-learning of both the psychosocial support but also the education to re-learn the values of the community to recognize the common humanity. I mean in that specific situation it's not the only one. It's happening in so many situations. It's in so many countries, in particular, where extreme violence has been used and children have been actually exploited because they're vulnerable, because they don't necessarily have the situation where they can resist and either be forced or forcibly recruited. So that requires a community-based approach. It's a very long process for recovery. Thank you.
Leslie Udwin: I think Dr. Saudamini has said most of what I believe also and very eloquently and so I'll just keep it very short. I think one of the first things we should do is look at them as human beings and understand what has happened to them and what they have been through. What adverse childhood experiences are they victims of, what socio-cultural robotic programming have they been victims of? Because a child by definition is someone in need of care and protection, and if that child has perpetrated a crime, the first thing we have to do is be understanding and look at that child from a human lens. And I'd be amazed if there are cases in which we cannot come to understand and forgive that child. And we should see, as I say, we should see our responsibility in teaching that child that the person or persons against whom he or she committed these crimes were lesser to them in some way or subject to different rules or whatever enabled them to “other” this person. Because if they saw that person is of equal value to them they would not have committed that crime. Quite simply, so I think, you know back to what you know - what my mantra is just - prevent, prevent, prevent. It's so easy; it's so ridiculously cheap. I'm dealing right now with a roll out in South Africa working with the South African government and the Early Childhood Department and we have just budgeted because we are rolling out every five-year-old child in South Africa - they start school later there - so we can only begin at five. It's two and a half million dollars to give this programme three times a week for 30 weeks for an entire year to every single five-year-old in that country. How dare we not do this? How dare we stand in the way as government's or you know quasi-governmental bodies - which happens all the time in this struggle to give the children what is their fundamental right - the right to a foundation for positive outcomes in life.
Dr. Saudamini: I just want to add one more thing. To increase the complexity - because when we were working with the Truth Commission in Liberia, where the position was that children should not be subjected to judicial accountability, they should not be prosecuted for the crimes of the war. But some of the commander's spoke out, and they said: ‘Look, we were recruited as children too and we were also vulnerable. We just happened to have lived a little bit longer while the war continued. What about us? We also want to be forgiven and we also want to be brought back into the community. I'm generalizing here to make the point, but the point is that we are all human beings. As Leslie Udwin was saying, and we have to really remember that in order to pursue non-recurrence in order for prevention and recovery as well today.
Dr. Laibuta: Just a quick comment on this. I think in the end it really depends what programme every country has for reintegration of child offenders in society. You could go through the restorative process but how do you reintegrate them into the family, into society? And that calls all effective programmes that I believe can be suitably defined, designed to bring the kind of corrective ends that we all look to. Thank you very much.
Declan Magero: There're lots of questions we had from participants. I'd like to ask this to Dr. Sheila Wamahiu to carry on but thank you very much to the panelists for being very generous with your responses. Thank you so much.
Closing Statements
Dr. Sheila Wamahiu: Without taking any more time I would like to ask each one of you to make your closing statement in one minute please. So I will start with Veronica. She's been quiet for a bit so let me start with Veronica Mwangi.
Veronica Mwangi: Thank you Dr. Sheila and thank you to everyone. First, I do want to just have a clarion call: Just encourage every one of us that we have an obligation to defend human rights and as such as stakeholders we can ensure that the community, that the societies where we live in, are inclusive and are favourable to the welfare and enjoyment of human rights for the intersex persons. And I will also encourage each and every one of us to remember Mother Teresa’s quote, that if you judge people you have no time to love them. So this is to encourage all of us. Let's love every other person. Let's love one another and as we do so, we shall then enhance the realization and enjoyment of human rights for all. Thank you.
Dr. Sheila Wamahiu: Thank you thank you for that Veronica let's move on to Dr. Saudamini.
Dr. Saudamini: Thank you, and maybe just as a last thought I would say that in the aftermath of armed conflict and extreme violence we hear the cry ‘never again’. You know this has been the kind of critique of ‘never again’ and we see the recurrence again and again. So how do we really put a stop to it? What is the way to achieve non-recurrence? Certainly, all of these components are important because we know the root causes of conflict are the inequities and the injustices, it is the discriminations in our world. So this is a long journey and we are basically - you know - in the journey together we have to work together; we have to find solutions. And those solutions are local; they're also global, but we really need to work at the grassroots level. And I think children and young people are incredibly important partners in that and they've again and again shown their capacities to really make a change. It takes time. We were just hearing about reconciliation and reintegration. That's a very long-term process which requires a lot of resources. So that's what we're facing, a big challenge and we're meeting the challenge. Thank you.
Dr. Laibuta: Thank you. Let me just end by saying this. I do appreciate what my colleagues have said ahead of me. I'm also privileged to have been part of this panel. But let me say this in conclusion, our social accountability for the best interest of the children, that are our children is a responsibility not just of government and ministerial or State Departments, not just the non-state agencies and non-governmental agencies, and not just charitable institutions - but each one of us, including members of the panel and the audience. The question we must always ask ourselves is, what do we do every day that touches on children, the best interest of the children or for our business interests? Once you answer that question, you'll find either you are or the children, according to them every right, or you will be those who break our children even before they attain majority. Thank you.
Leslie Udwin: So I'd like to direct my last words to the people who are with us here on the webinar who have young children or no young children, and I'm sure that means every single one of us. So the first thing to say is, Think Equal in response to COVID - 19, has rather quickly gotten together a free giveaway to parents and children at home. At this time of six weeks’ worth of activities and narrative picture books that address some of these social-emotional learning competencies and skills. We've also written a book about the pandemic to explain these big feelings of confusion and fear and sadness to our little ones. But I wanted to say something. Actually quite serious to each and every one of you. And it leads on very much from what Dr. Laibuta has just said. It's a call to action. Really we are all guilty now, and in a way it's not our fault. He'd also been programmed to this because we've been told consistently by the world that the purpose of existence is accumulation of wealth - that great lie now. What grips us is what Pope Francis very eloquently calls the globalization of indifference. That is what we are guilty of in the grip of violence; now we've become inured to it. We become indifferent to it. We see human rights abuses with our own eyes each and every single one of us, as Dr. Laibuta said, has a duty and accountability, a responsibility. And if it's only going to our school and saying we don't accept that numeracy and literacy and teaching our children to read and write alone is enough; we must holistically teach our children and frameworks - early childhood frameworks - are not enough. They don't cut it, we need tools; we need prescriptive, concrete plug-and-play tools. which do exist and demand that all of our children are taught them because that is our duty of care.
Dr. Sheila Wamahiu: Thank you, Leslie. I think all of you have made a very passionate call for action; you have called for prevention - preventive measures but we also need to have, together with prevention, we also need to know how to deal with what already exists. So I think we need something that is bottom-up and top-down and the both must meet somewhere if we have to change this world. Declan your final words; your final insights.
Declan Magero: Awesome panelist. Veronica I really appreciated perspective on silence and secrecy around intersex persons. Dr. Saudamini, transitional justice like Dr. Laibuta, policy and legislation processes, and you know, every child every right mantra. And of course Leslee, your inspiration - Human Rights and instilling also social and emotional learning. This will stay with me and I think these are clarion calls that we ought to highlight. All these are really critical issues. Thank you so much.
Dr. Sheila Wamahiu: I think we better also thank each and every one of our panelists for responding to our call to be on this panel and inform us and to, in a sense, educate on what is happening out there, the different ways that we must address this problem of discrimination and violence and rape and exclusion. So I sincerely thank all of you, but I also thank our very wonderful audience - those who have joined us from all over for being with us today patiently until now, and those who had to leave for whatever reason. This webinar recording will be up on our website so please watch out for it in case you missed part of it. There will be the Q&A in a blog post. I'd also like to let you know our next webinar will be on June 24th this one will focus on girls, women and human rights. We will have wonderful panelists from different parts of the globe again and we will also have an expert interview on Friday with Dr. Pilar Aguilar who will be talking about something that's been happening - the huge migrant - forced migrant crisis from Venezuela, which is second only to Syria. Five million people have been forced to migrate and now in the COVID pandemic it's even worse. More so she will focus on education apart from that, we'll also be having other expert panelists before the webinar on 24th June 2020. We will also have conversations with youth, which our youth associates from Jaslika will be conducting with other children - cabinet members of the children's Government in Kenya.